Reptiles Magazine Community / General Discussion / Reptile Forums / Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums? / Latest Posts

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

senior beaver — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:43:44 GMT

Bigger is always better, books usually give "minimum" or "at least" sizes, but bigger is better. Just think that there is no minum space or supplies in nature.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

greenfinger — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:59:50 GMT

Since 2006 I have taken in over 60 reptiles. It is appalling to me that 98% of people who purchase a reptile feel that you can take home ANYTHING throw it in a 10 gallon aquarium and feed it when you remember to.

I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars, of my own money(I am not a nonprofit, my community won't support a reptile rescue) to ensure that other people's throw away pets have the best on the market.

I do cut corners by using donated bird and rodent cages. Useing less expensive dog, food and water bowls and shopping for the best deals on bulk reptile food. I also try to order larger quantities of UV bulbs, vitamins and heat mats at one time to cut shipping costs. But they get the best I can find. I have rehabilitated animals that even my vet said had little chance of survival. Money has less value than a life to me, especially a life lived well. The rewards are immense.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

jsinhardcore — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 08:47:14 GMT

Colubrid snakes being lazy captives is only true in my experience when kept at low temps and by low temps i mean being kept with a temp gradient of 85F-70F like most care sheets and keepers recommend or worse yet in heated rooms set to 82F. You would be surprised how active a colubrid snake like a Corn can be when given a large enclosure with a wide temp gradient. A Cornsnake in a rack or 20gal tank that is never allowed to get any hotter then 82F-85F is a lazy, nonactive captive that is never running in anything more then "first gear". Snakes kept that way feed once a week and dont show much behaviors and maybe lays a clutch of eggs a year with marginal fertility. Now a Corn in a 55gal. with access to temps of 70F on the cool side all the way up to a basking surface temp of 105F will be able to run on "all gears" and will feed daily (like every other day)and will show its FULL RANGE of behaviors and multi clutch on the regular.

As long as you meet the needs, minimum isn't necessarily bad...

................. What about the QUALITY of life? Just meeting basic biological needs (minimums) pays no attention to this area. We should care about more about our captives then just keeping a heart beat. The quality of life that captive enjoys should be our(the keepers) first priority. If one can only provide the minimums to sustain life then one shouldnt own a pet i.m.o.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

Sinkarnate — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 07:42:04 GMT

Yeah, theres no such thing as to large when these animals are not considered domestic, in the wild there would be no walls or boundaries and they would make their own territory. Some may argue that this means we should provide a mile long habitat for a corn snake but all you really need to look at is the behavior of the animal. The more active an animal is the more they need to enrich their minds. macaws, for example... They need a lot of interaction and stuff to play with and destroy, if they get bored they get depressed and usually harm themselves. snakes on the other hand are pretty chill and are happy to just sit and wait for days on end. As long as you meet the needs, minimum isn't necessarily bad...
I will say though that a hide and newspaper might have some psychological effects on an animal, we may not notice any outter effects but such a bland environment might be boring even to a snake. I always try to provide at least some semblence of the natural world, with substrate and a fake plant at the least.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

herpsrule13 — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:48:20 GMT

Good stuff guys, I don't think herps get stressed from too much room. it's lack of cover. I do lots of research and see a lot of the same stuff.

Example:The red eye tree frog (Agalychnis callidryas)

is said to be kept in a 10tall...Seriously? This rainforest tree frog deserves better, i feel a 20tall and bigger is minimum

We can discuss the sizes of herps but it all comes down to this: people want something and they want for little money and they want in a small space, they would rather show off a herp in a as small as tank possible according the petstore than make it comfartable. the tank is their life they are staying there almost forever, we should make it as good as possible

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

Katschamne — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:51:29 GMT

Sinkarnate is right, as long as you meet the animals needs, bare minimums aren't necessary a bad thing. I have people that come into where I work, that have been given an animal or rescued an animal that don't want to go broke but still provide proper care. You can take short cuts on somethings. Paper towel, newspaper or play sand instead of the substrates you buy at the pet store. The heat lamp is the other things that you can get at any hardware store or Walmart store, it is still bare minimums but you are still provide for the health and well being of the animal. There are things that you can skimp on but to know where you can and can't is where research comes in. Like the bearded dragon for one like Sinkarnate said paper towels work just fine, it may not look great but it will work. Where you want to spend your money on is the heat, light bulbs (UV) and the size of the cage.

Again if you have only a couple of animals and you want to go all out that is great, knock your socks off. We have 150 tarantulas and we don't have huge tanks for each of them. There are a few that have a bigger cages but most have minimum cages. We do research on each of the animals to provide them what they need. We move them to a different cage as the animal grows.You would not put a spiderling in a huge cage. It is hard to provide proper care if it has higher humidity needs it is hard to keep the humidity up and they would have a hard time finding food.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

Sinkarnate — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 08:59:29 GMT

I was going to say that most people who do bare minimums are breeders with 100 or more animals where providing an elaborate cage for everything would take millions of dollars....
minimums are not always a problem, especially if animals kept in such conditions are shown to live longer healthier lives than those in the wild, or even in other types of enclosures.
A lot of snakes, for example, can be kept in relatively small cages, with no lights, news paper, a water dish and a hide box. Absolute bare minimums, and things like corns, kings, garters, a lot of colubrids can live very happily in these enclosures. Then things like burms, retics, and such can be kept in a very similar way but with a heated spot and humidity...still minimums...but you have to meet the temperature needs and such.
The reason this works so well with most snakes is because they are not terribly active animals. Most snakes curls up somewhere comfortable and sleep or rest for the most part of their week, month, whatever. Most of them do not actively hunt, they sit and wait. So MOST of them have a very sedentary life style there for do not require all that much to keep them happy.
Now that doesn't mean that giving them a more natural environment is a bad thing, it might be more psychologically stimulating but only for a few days while the snake is still checking it out and getting used to it...then it will find a nice spot to curl up and likely wont be to active unless it's close to feed day.
Lizards however are a completely different story. Most lizards are very active and need the space and structures to move around and climb on or dig into. You can still do the bare minimums with... a bearded dragon, for example, by giving it a heat/uvb light, some sand, and a branch to climb on. maybe not even sand, you could just use news paper. and again, this is most common among big breeders who have numerous amounts of these animals.

I will say, though if you are only have one or two animals as pets you should go all out and make the cage and naturalistic as possible. Why not? if its the only one or two you have go out of your way and make it exceptional...just don't over crowd it....

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

Moyer78 — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:40:01 GMT

I don't agree with they only need this much space concept either.

I think as long as the animal feels safe it will be ok.

I like to go overboard when possible but like other have said money can be an issue sometimes.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

Ratsnake — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:30:24 GMT

I try not to just do bare minimum if I can help it. Cage size is usually restricted due to a persons budget since large high quality caging is expensive and not everyone has the ability to build one. Heck, my 6ft Boaphile cage cost me $600. I always provide a cage that will alow a snake to stretch out comfortably and move freely.

I'm convinced that the idea that snakes, especially babies, get stressed in large enclousere is a myth. It's a myth that does not get challenged. Being restricted in movement is more stressful. The key is providing plenty of nice tight hides and substrate deep enough to burrow in. When I first got my bull snake I had to keep him in a 40 gallon until my Boaphile was delivered. He was constantly climbing the glass. When he was switched into a 6ft cage, he stopped. My hognose is starting to climb the glass, witch tells me it's time to get her out of a 20 gallon.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

sgtpepper0 — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:30:15 GMT

Most people use bare minimums as beginning reptile keepers:
1. Unfortunately, not everyone knows if a reptile is right for them. They don't want to spend a tremendous amount of money on additional cage supplies or on a larger terrariums. Why should they, in their opinion...
2. Most younger children want a lizard. No parent is going to spend $200+ on a "pet" that their child may not want in the near future.

Then you have the people who really love their reptiles, but have fallen on hard times and just can't provide that amazing, huge terrarium. Bare minimums may not be the best, but they work for people.

In my case, yes, my male leopard geckos live in ten gallon tanks. I have never purchased a ten gallon tank, people give them to me because they know I use them. I would definently love for Pongo and Kirby to live in their own personal twenty gallon tank, but I can't afford it right now. Pongo was a rescue, a little kid didn't want him anymore so he was letting it loose in his yard. I had to nearly go broke to give him bare minimum. I am also rescuing Pongo's tank mate, Maestro: yes, two male leopard geckos were housed together, yikes. But I have to save up the money.

On the other hand, my two female leopard geckos are housed in an elaborate thirty-five gallon breeder tank.

Money dictates everyone's decisions here lately. It sucks, I know, but some people just can't afford it.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

RabidReptile — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 06:09:01 GMT

Steve 95 (10/15/2009)

Actually, there is no such thing as an enclosure that is too large. A large enclosure doesn't stress herps. Lack of cover, however, can. A bare terrarium would definitely cause stress. An enclosure can be as big as it can possibly be, as long as there is sufficient cover so the animal won't feel insecure.

I'm making a 60 gallon enclosure for my Broad-Headed skink. I could have gotten by with half that size, but I knew the large size would benefit his semi-arboreal nature.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

Katschamne — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:36:58 GMT

Steve 95 (10/15/2009)

leogecko (10/15/2009)

I don't think you should just guess at what a herp needs. It could cause a lot of unnecessary stress.

Exactly, and some herps actually don't like wide open cages were they can freely do whatever they want. It could stress them out and make them feel un-secure. And I mean is going over the limit really nessecary? The people that give the minimum to there herps are the people that buy there stuff at petsmart. Everybody on this site knows how to keep there herp in a nice, comfortable enclosure (or at least I hope so). Having one side 110 degrees and another 80 degrees for a reptile that dosn't need that extreme of temps. dosn't make sense to me. And it also sounds like a waste of space.

It is all about doing your research on the animal. Bare minimums can be two different things. You can do bare minimums because the animal is small and in time you will have to upgrade the cage. This is good sometimes when dealing with small reptiles. Where if they were in a larger cage they might not be able to find their food. It's knowing that you will have to upgrade and don't is when it becomes a problem. Bare minimums can be on cage decors you need the necessities but rather then going live plant you do fake.

I have tarantulas and most people go way over board on them, in the end they think they are providing them with best care when in reality it may be doing more harm then good. Take a rose hair tarantula, I have people come into the store I work and tell me they have a tarantula. Of course I start asking questions. I usually find out that they have them on a thin layer of sand, in a 10 gallon tank, with a heat lamp on it and a sponge in the water dish they feed them every other day or put a bunch of crickets in the tank until they are all gone or they have died. Okay here is the truth. First sand is too abrasive of a substrate. Yes they come from a very arrid part of Chile but it is more scrub land and coco fibers, peat moss or even cheap potting soil is all you need. A 10 gallon tank is much to big for them a shoe box size container is all you need but if you have a 10 gallon go ahead and use it just make the substrate very deep. The height of the tank should be no more then 1 1/2 times the leg span of the spider. Why you might ask, because they can die from a fall greater then that. You don't need the heat light or any other other heat source because it dries out the spider especially when the are molting they need moisture. If you keep your house above 65 degree then they should be fine. They also don't need a sponge because it harbors bacteria. A shallow water dish is fine or spray the sides of the cage. A hide maybe needed but if they are in a dark room or shelf it may not be needed. They don't have to feed everyday, once a week is fine, some even do it every other week. You should never leave uneaten crickets in the tank weather they are alive or died. Alive they can harm the tarantula if it is molting and if they are died can carry other parasites.

That was an example on one tarantula's needs. Now cage requirement change with each species. Some require larger cages then others, weather it is height or length, some require more humidity then others. It is doing the research that is what is required to provide the proper environment. You can make an enclosure look great but it isn't always necessary and sometimes bare minimums are better.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

Steve 95 — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:21:45 GMT

leogecko (10/15/2009)

I don't think you should just guess at what a herp needs. It could cause a lot of unnecessary stress.

RE: Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

leogecko — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:20:22 GMT

I don't follow bare minimums for my leopard gecko. I got a lot of info from books and other sources for a general idea of what is required. Over time things have been altered in my gecko's enclosure according to what she seems to prefer. I have added plenty of objects for climbing, and she uses them frequently.

She is housed in a 40 gallon terrarium. Most sources say a 10 gallon is the right size, but I think 10 gallons is too small for any herp. There are three hiding areas in the terrarium. One in the cool side, the middle, and the hot side.

The cool side is 76-80 degrees. The warm side is 90-95 degrees. I let the temps drop at night about 7 degrees on the warm side. These temps are not what a lot of sources recommend, but she is doing very well. She spends most of her time in the middle and warm areas but rarely the cool side.

I don't think you should just guess at what a herp needs. It could cause a lot of unnecessary stress.

Why are people always trying to keep and achieve things in this hobby with bare minimums?

jsinhardcore — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:41:48 GMT

Me him a horrible keeper and i have never trusted my self to make the right decisions for my captives, so i have always provided large caging with a large range of temp and humidity extremes to give my captives (what ever they were at what ever time ) the means to pick and choose what THEY want. Anything not ever used by my captives are eliminated from future enclosure designs and it just keeps getting whittled down from there till only what is USED by my animals even for a short amount of time(like a 145F basking spot) is left. Most people do not use this approach. They just follow the example of a bare minimum care sheets or the girl next door with the 2 leos and a rainbow boa. I feel that this is why most people in this hobby do not see or experience all that their charges have to offer and is why most keepers standers of success are just laughable. What is up with this, in my opinion horrible approach to captive husbandry standards?