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Why are people always trying to keep and... Expand / Collapse
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Posted 10/15/2009 9:41:48 AM


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Me him a horrible keeper and i have never trusted my self to make the right decisions for my captives, so i have always provided large caging with a large range of temp and humidity extremes to give my captives (what ever they were at what ever time ) the means to pick and choose what THEY want. Anything not ever used by my captives are eliminated from future enclosure designs and it just keeps getting whittled down from there till only what is USED by my animals even for a short amount of time(like a 145F basking spot) is left. Most people do not use this approach. They just follow the example of a bare minimum care sheets or the girl next door with the 2 leos and a rainbow boa. I feel that this is why most people in this hobby do not see or experience all that their charges have to offer and is why most keepers standers of success are just laughable. What is up with this, in my opinion horrible approach to captive husbandry standards?



Jsin.

 

'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.'
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Post #103893
Posted 10/15/2009 10:20:22 AM


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I don't follow bare minimums for my leopard gecko. I got a lot of info from books and other sources for a general idea of what is required. Over time things have been altered in my gecko's enclosure according to what she seems to prefer. I have added plenty of objects for climbing, and she uses them frequently.

She is housed in a 40 gallon terrarium. Most sources say a 10 gallon is the right size, but I think 10 gallons is too small for any herp. There are three hiding areas in the terrarium. One in the cool side, the middle, and the hot side.

The cool side is 76-80 degrees. The warm side is 90-95 degrees. I let the temps drop at night about 7 degrees on the warm side. These temps are not what a lot of sources recommend, but she is doing very well. She spends most of her time in the middle and warm areas but rarely the cool side.

I don't think you should just guess at what a herp needs. It could cause a lot of unnecessary stress.


1 albino reverse stripe leopard gecko Yoshi 

1 silver miniature poodle Midnight

Post #103896
Posted 10/15/2009 7:21:45 PM


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leogecko (10/15/2009)
I don't think you should just guess at what a herp needs. It could cause a lot of unnecessary stress.

Exactly, and some herps actually don't like wide open cages were they can freely do whatever they want. It could stress them out and make them feel un-secure. And I mean is going over the limit really nessecary? The people that give the minimum to there herps are the people that buy there stuff at petsmart. Everybody on this site knows how to keep there herp in a nice, comfortable enclosure (or at least I hope so). Having one side 110 degrees and another 80 degrees for a reptile that dosn't need that extreme of temps. dosn't make sense to me. And it also sounds like a waste of space.

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Post #103958
Posted 10/20/2009 10:36:58 PM


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Steve 95 (10/15/2009)
leogecko (10/15/2009)
I don't think you should just guess at what a herp needs. It could cause a lot of unnecessary stress.

Exactly, and some herps actually don't like wide open cages were they can freely do whatever they want. It could stress them out and make them feel un-secure. And I mean is going over the limit really nessecary? The people that give the minimum to there herps are the people that buy there stuff at petsmart. Everybody on this site knows how to keep there herp in a nice, comfortable enclosure (or at least I hope so). Having one side 110 degrees and another 80 degrees for a reptile that dosn't need that extreme of temps. dosn't make sense to me. And it also sounds like a waste of space.

It is all about doing your research on the animal. Bare minimums can be two different things. You can do bare minimums because the animal is small and in time you will have to upgrade the cage. This is good sometimes when dealing with small reptiles. Where if they were in a larger cage they might not be able to find their food. It's knowing that you will have to upgrade and don't is when it becomes a problem. Bare minimums can be on cage decors you need the necessities but rather then going live plant you do fake.

I have tarantulas and most people go way over board on them, in the end they think they are providing them with best care when in reality it may be doing more harm then good.  Take a rose hair tarantula, I have people come into the store I work and tell me they have a tarantula. Of course I start asking questions. I usually find out that they have them on a thin layer of sand, in a 10 gallon tank, with a heat lamp on it and a sponge in the water dish they feed them every other day or put a bunch of crickets in the tank until they are all gone or they have died. Okay here is the truth. First sand is too abrasive of a substrate. Yes they come from a very arrid part of Chile but it is more scrub land and coco fibers, peat moss or even cheap potting soil is all you need. A 10 gallon tank is much to big for them a shoe box size container is all you need but if you have a 10 gallon go ahead and use it just make the substrate very deep. The height of the tank should be no more then 1 1/2 times the leg span of the spider. Why you might ask, because they can die from a fall greater then that. You don't need the heat light or any other other heat source because it dries out the spider especially when the are molting they need moisture. If you keep your house above 65 degree then they should be fine. They also don't need a sponge because it harbors bacteria. A shallow water dish is fine or spray the sides of the cage. A hide maybe needed but if they are in a dark room or shelf it may not be needed. They don't have to feed everyday, once a week is fine, some even do it every other week. You should never leave uneaten crickets in the tank weather they are alive or died. Alive they can harm the tarantula if it is molting and if they are died can carry other parasites.

That was an example on one tarantula's needs. Now cage requirement change with each species. Some require larger cages then others, weather it is height or length, some require more humidity then others. It is doing the research that is what is required to provide the proper environment. You can make an enclosure look great but it isn't always necessary and sometimes bare minimums are better.

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Sinaloan Milksnake
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Post #104549
Posted 10/21/2009 6:09:01 AM


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Steve 95 (10/15/2009)
Exactly, and some herps actually don't like wide open cages were they can freely do whatever they want. It could stress them out and make them feel un-secure. And I mean is going over the limit really nessecary?

Actually, there is no such thing as an enclosure that is too large. A large enclosure doesn't stress herps. Lack of cover, however, can. A bare terrarium would definitely cause stress. An enclosure can be as big as it can possibly be, as long as there is sufficient cover so the animal won't feel insecure.

I'm making a 60 gallon enclosure for my Broad-Headed skink. I could have gotten by with half that size, but I knew the large size would benefit his semi-arboreal nature.


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Post #104557
Posted 10/21/2009 8:30:15 AM


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Most people use bare minimums as beginning reptile keepers:
1. Unfortunately, not everyone knows if a reptile is right for them. They don't want to spend a tremendous amount of money on additional cage supplies or on a larger terrariums. Why should they, in their opinion...
2. Most younger children want a lizard. No parent is going to spend $200+ on a "pet" that their child may not want in the near future.

Then you have the people who really love their reptiles, but have fallen on hard times and just can't provide that amazing, huge terrarium. Bare minimums may not be the best, but they work for people.

In my case, yes, my male leopard geckos live in ten gallon tanks. I have never purchased a ten gallon tank, people give them to me because they know I use them. I would definently love for Pongo and Kirby to live in their own personal twenty gallon tank, but I can't afford it right now. Pongo was a rescue, a little kid didn't want him anymore so he was letting it loose in his yard. I had to nearly go broke to give him bare minimum. I am also rescuing Pongo's tank mate, Maestro: yes, two male leopard geckos were housed together, yikes. But I have to save up the money.

On the other hand, my two female leopard geckos are housed in an elaborate thirty-five gallon breeder tank.

Money dictates everyone's decisions here lately. It sucks, I know, but some people just can't afford it.

 My herps: 
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                      (High Yellow X Albino), named Kirby
                      (Tangerine Tornado), named Esmerelda
                      (Rainwater Patternless Albino), named Kiwi
                      (Regular Jungle), named Pongo rescued
                     
(?), named Maria rescued

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                      (Heterozygous Xantic), named Rufus

Post #104561
Posted 10/21/2009 9:30:24 AM


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 I try not to just do bare minimum if I can help it. Cage size is usually restricted due to a persons budget since large high quality caging is expensive and not everyone has the ability to build one.  Heck, my 6ft Boaphile cage cost me $600. I always provide a cage that will alow a snake to stretch out comfortably and move freely.

 I'm convinced that the idea that snakes, especially babies, get stressed in large enclousere is a myth. It's a myth that does not get challenged. Being restricted in movement is more stressful. The key is providing plenty of nice tight hides and substrate deep enough to burrow in.  When I first got my bull snake I had to keep him in a 40 gallon until my Boaphile was delivered. He was constantly climbing the glass. When he was switched into a 6ft cage, he stopped.  My hognose is starting to climb the glass, witch tells me it's time to get her out of a 20 gallon.

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Post #104564
Posted 10/21/2009 4:40:01 PM
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I don't agree with they only need this much space concept either.

I think as long as the animal feels safe it will be ok.

I like to go overboard when possible but like other have said money can be an issue sometimes. 

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Post #104597
Posted 10/22/2009 8:59:29 AM
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I was going to say that most people who do bare minimums are breeders with 100 or more animals where providing an elaborate cage for everything would take millions of dollars....
minimums are not always a problem, especially if animals kept in such conditions are shown to live longer healthier lives than those in the wild, or even in other types of enclosures.
A lot of snakes, for example, can be kept in relatively small cages, with no lights, news paper, a water dish and a hide box. Absolute bare minimums, and things like corns, kings, garters, a lot of colubrids can live very happily in these enclosures. Then things like burms, retics, and such can be kept in a very similar way but with a heated spot and humidity...still minimums...but you have to meet the temperature needs and such.
The reason this works so well with most snakes is because they are not terribly active animals. Most snakes curls up somewhere comfortable and sleep or rest for the most part of their week, month, whatever. Most of them do not actively hunt, they sit and wait. So MOST of them have a very sedentary life style there for do not require all that much to keep them happy.
Now that doesn't mean that giving them a more natural environment is a bad thing, it might be more psychologically stimulating but only for a few days while the snake is still checking it out and getting used to it...then it will find a nice spot to curl up and likely wont be to active unless it's close to feed day.
Lizards however are a completely different story. Most lizards are very active and need the space and structures to move around and climb on or dig into. You can still do the bare minimums with... a bearded dragon, for example, by giving it a heat/uvb light, some sand, and a branch to climb on. maybe not even sand, you could just use news paper. and again, this is most common among big breeders who have numerous amounts of these animals.

I will say, though if you are only have one or two animals as pets you should go all out and make the cage and naturalistic as possible. Why not? if its the only one or two you have go out of your way and make it exceptional...just don't over crowd it....
Post #104639
Posted 10/22/2009 3:51:29 PM


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Sinkarnate is right, as long as you meet the animals needs, bare minimums aren't necessary a bad thing. I have people that come into where I work, that have been given an animal or rescued an animal that don't want to go broke but still provide proper care. You can take short cuts on somethings. Paper towel, newspaper or play sand instead of the substrates you buy at the pet store. The heat lamp is the other things that you can get at any hardware store or Walmart store, it is still bare minimums but you are still provide for the health and well being of the animal. There are things that you can skimp on but to know where you can and can't is where research comes in. Like the bearded dragon for one like Sinkarnate said paper towels work just fine, it may not look great but it will work. Where you want to spend your money on is the heat, light bulbs (UV) and the size of the cage.

Again if you have only a couple of animals and you want to go all out that is great, knock your socks off. We have 150 tarantulas and we don't have huge tanks for each of them. There are a few that have a bigger cages but most have minimum cages. We do research on each of the animals to provide them what they need. We move them to a different cage as the animal grows.You would not put a spiderling in a huge cage. It is hard to provide proper care if it has higher humidity needs it is hard to keep the humidity up and they would have a hard time finding food.

Bearded Dragon
2 Viper Geckos
Sinaloan Milksnake
145 Tarantulas and counting
1 trap door spider
8 scorpions
4 Birds
3 gallon Male Betta
Baby red devil/Midas cichlid
7 gallon nano reef tank
125 gallon freshwater tank.
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